Well yes lula, proving (not telling, but proving) to people that they have no free will and that religion is a lie generally makes them hostile and non-productive.

Policy makers need to be addressing this reality with kid gloves behind the scenes for people like you, but that is neither here nor there on topic.

This is also not to say that I hate Conservatives, they have many outlooks that agree with my sentiments and liberals have many that don't, but when it comes down to it...

As a species we have alot of growing up to do to make things better for our lot in the universe, and one of these "labels" leads down the right path eventually.

Orion posts: 

But no one has ever proven nor could ever prove that we have no free will or that historic Christianity is a lie.

Proof of free will stands. The fact of free will we know by reason, revelation and by direct consciousness, just as we know our own identity. 

Free will is a noble gift of Almighty God which gives men their true dignity and makes it possible for them to attain an eternal supernatural destiny.

Free will is the capability of self determination. It is "that property in virtue of which a rational agent, when all the conditions required to elicit a volition are present, can either put forth or abstain from that volition." ( Maher, Psychology 395.)

God Himself has given us the power of volitional activity.

Free will is not "motiveless volition". It does not imply choice without motive, but choice between motives.  

We are aware that we can freely guide our own thoughts selecting, selecting if we choose the least attractive. We are aware that, when 2 alternative courses of action lie before us, we can freely deliberate  upon their respective merits, reflecting, inquiring and examining the reasons for each side,

We are conscious that our final choice is free. We can go to the store and buy vanilla or chocolate ice cream. We can invest our money in stocks, bonds or gold. We can resist an evil thought or consent to it. 

The moral consciousness of mankind points to the freedom of the will. The sense of moral obligation is written in every man's heart. It is as certain as the uniformity of nature. We know that we are bound to do right and to avoid wrong. We also know that we are absolutely free to avoid evil. 

This is veering a bit off topic, but I am curious how you can claim you have free will when your consciousness lags a half second behind reality?

That is to say, consciousness is generated by work done from the brain, and this process takes a 1/2 second. So all the "decisions" rising up to your awareness are pre-prepared. This has been proven by work done by Benjamin Libet in the 80s, and reproduced consistently in labs across the world.

Where the illusion of free will occurs is in the ability to veto these conscious impulses.

The only unknown in all of this is how the "veto" process manifests, and only because we have yet to have a testable unified field theory that can be verified. When we do, we can determine if chaos theory is a real manifestation of a self-contained complex system, or if we simply lack the technological ability to map a deterministic cause of systems described by chaos theory.

Ultimately what this means; is the process of vetoing a conscious impulse 100% deterministic, or random? Regardless of the outcome, you really do not have free will. You cannot cause your own causality, and this has been measured and verified and available to anyone who actually bothers to pick up a book on the subject or read some lab papers.

I'm not going to get involved in the Christianity debate in any detail, but the main points specific to Christianity are; Christianity has a proven history of assimilating the belief systems of other cultures for harmonious integration of said cultures. Christianity has a proven history of revising doctrine based on evolving societal outlooks. The correctness of Christian leadership outlooks from previous generations can be compared and measured to knowledge at the time, and then outright annihilated by modern knowledge in technological, societal and biological sciences.

Christianity (and all religions for that matter) comes from one place only, man.

This is not to say I am an atheist. I am simply agnostic towards the concept of god.  I know enough about allelomimetic physics and our lack of knowledge in the category of "depth of complexity", in addition to our obvious ignorance to what is outside of our universe to be able to say for sure there is no such thing as "god". However the concept of "a possible self-aware allelomimetic cosmic pattern that could be construed as god" is incompatible with every religion I have ever looked at, and is very difficult to explain to someone who has never picked up even modern layman books on physics, consciousness and societal systems.

Yes, we've done a good job of that but then again, M-Post began his article by saying, let's start a discourse.

That we've done and he's been patient with us so far. 

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All this is interesting but doesn't change the fact that man has free will. As I said before the moral consciousness of man points to the freedom of will. The act of free choice is itself made on the basis of conscious judgments. Free will should be considered more as an ability to select between influences. One's own awareness (consciousness) is witness to the fact that he chooses consciously. 

If his belief of free will is illusory, then no datum of consciousness would seem to have any truth value....talk about chaos!!! 

You deny that man is the master of his own actions, yet on account of consciousness, you have the power of presenting your argument courteously or offensively. Why endeavor to convince others that man has not free will? The answer is simple for man can deny free will in words, but he cannot possibly harmonize his actions with such a denial.  

Let's go back to one of your previous assertions. 

Denial of free will is as absurd as denial that man is a human being for intellect and free will differentiate man from beasts. The most highly moral human relations would be impossible if he is devoid of free will. Freedom to choose between truth and falsehood, right and wrong, good and evil, love and hate, loyalty and treason, temperance and drunkenness, purity and lust, law and tyranny, would be obsolete if man is an irresponsible being.

Unless there is mental illness, a person is personally responsible for his thoughts, words and actions (deeds). If you had not free will, you could not deny the God that made you.

Have you read Stephen M. Barr's "Modern Physics and Ancient Faith"? If you haven't, it should be available at your public library.

Barr is indeed a modern layman, a really interesting, gifted one. He has a chapter on determinism and free will, quantum theory and free will. On page 189, the last sentence in that chapter describes YOU.

 "It is ironic that the modern materialist skeptic disbelieves even in the reality of his own freedom, both moral and intellectual." 

Blah blah blah … got any statistics to back this up? You might explain how ‘free choice’ can be determined in a lab too. From the perspective of the 'known' universe I agree that without the intervention of man (if we ever decide to grow up) or our equivalents elsewhere in the universe or of course those pesky universal quarks we have not yet discovered pop up, our fate is predetermined and unavoidable universally … but this is completely beside the point and meaningless unless you enjoy talking in billions of years chunks. No matter our flavor of brainwashing (except Lula and co. of course), we do not think or act in any manor on a universal, galactic, solar or even planetary scale … ever.

When I am held at knifepoint by some prick demanding my wallet … I am awash with free will up to and including the point when I pull out my Kimber … free will with meaning.

What nonsense is this ... do you really live in a book (or in papers)? I think you need to look more at actual life especially as it pertains to the individual … reality check here. I have been persuaded against my ‘free will’ more times than I like to remember and it had nothing to do with statistics or (much) choice … it had to do with the reality of the situation and the perceived options at the time. Deterministic universe had nothing at all to do with this. This crap may work for the universe and co. … but it is meaningless to the people you are trying to apply it to.

 
PS. You banter proverbs and superstition with Lula … you are destined to fail!!!

Hello Lulu, been a while … presumptuous as always I see.

It is amazing to see this but LORD-ORION is concerned with a half a second (?) and you are professing a belief in 'free will' (???) ... amazing.

Free will, humm … the ability to act or make choices as a free and autonomous being and not solely as a result of compulsion or predestination ... looks pretty straightforward to me. Seems like this definition (the only one in my layman’s dictionary) precludes you from expressing free will at all let alone espousing the concept. Although I agree with you here … you are no way in possession of any free will at all … sorry. I wonder how you explain your own imperfections … are you as harsh on yourself as you are on us nonbelievers, I think not.

PS. The vacation was fine I just had some things to tend to and lost track of time however ... your thorn has returned ... hehehe!!!

Pardon me but let's be clear … you are liberal on every issue presented to you??? Have you no conservative values at all? Do you know how ludicrous that sounds? Do you know what a fanatic is? If you like to allow yourself to be labeled in such a trivial manor more power to you … whatever. There are things actually worth standing for … but banners and labels are not on the list.